Talk:Holodomor

Holodomor

Moved from User talk:Manyareasexpert § Holodomor

 – ManyAreasExpert (talk) 20:14, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi. I see you reverted my changes. The secondary source bringing the events into connection actually exists and it was mentioned as one of the reference but wasn't made the main thing (Timothy Snyder, "Covert Polish Missions Across the Soviet Ukrainian Border, 1928-1933", 2005). Would it be okay if I rework with making it more prominent and add the primary sources as additional justification, or should I not mention them at all? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Krispe13 (talk • contribs) 20:08, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Greetings! I scrolled through Snyder and he has a chapter on the famine so adding him would be fine. I'm generally against adding something based on primary sources as the article is already pretty large by itself and we have lots of secondary sources covering the subject. So why use primary ones. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 20:19, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Declaring Holodomor a "natural event" that happened due to bad weather conditions rather than an intentional "clean up" of Ukrainian society is a popular propaganda point of those, who deny Holodomor as a genocide based on the assumed lack of intention. Thus, I considered it important to also include the primary sources (such as the "Report to the Seventeenth Party Congress", which states that Ukrainian nationalism became the "chief danger" since it "linked up with the interventionists") that support the claim about the relationships between Prometheus/"Polish agents" activities and Holodomor established by Snyder and several other Ukrainian researches. But I will follow your suggestion and will only stick to the secondary sources. Krispe13 (talk) 08:56, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

There is already some info on attack on nationalism in the article, which could be extended. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 09:17, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

But its not up for debate, we have the sources all modern scholarship views it as fully intentional. 2603:6011:F400:DAC:D544:D755:1442:DD71 (talk) 05:09, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 November 2024

The term Holodomor (death by hunger, in Ukrainian) refers to the starvation of millions of Ukrainians in 1932–33 as a result of Soviet policies. The Holodomor can be seen as the culmination of an assault by the Communist Party and Soviet state on the Ukrainian peasantry, who resisted Soviet policies. This assault occurred in the context of a campaign of intimidation and arrests of Ukrainian intellectuals, writers, artists, religious leaders, and political cadres, who were seen as a threat to Soviet ideological and state-building aspirations. 2A02:A31D:A19C:F000:2D37:491E:AD61:4711 (talk) 19:39, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ⸺(Random)staplers 20:18, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

New Sources

Two relatively new sources, worth adding to the article?

Still, did Ukrainian peasants, the vast majority of the victims, die because they were Ukrainians engaged in agriculture, or because they were peasants who happened to be Ukrainians? Until recently, attempts to solve this question involved trying to decipher Stalin’s mind and intentions, and answers inevitably differed. But recent comprehensive statistical analysis has uncovered a substantial anti-Ukrainian bias in government policies during the Holodomor. This bias explains roughly 92 percent of famine deaths in Ukraine and caused mortality rates that were four to six times higher than those in Russia. Moreover, even the low harvests of the famine years were sufficient to feed all of Ukraine’s population, and had the food grown in Ukraine during the famine been kept in the republic, it would not have triggered starvation elsewhere in the USSR. Rather, the Kremlin’s policy of deliberate overextraction from Ukraine caused the famine. We might now have the answer: Ukrainian peasants, not just the kurkul’ class enemies but also poor and middling peasants, died because they were Ukrainians, not because they farmed. This was a radical break from previous Russian repressions. In the past, the intent to destroy Ukraine centered on targeting culture, institutions, and activists. Ordinary Ukrainians were either to be transformed into Russians or silenced, not exiled, imprisoned, or starved to death because of their identity. Under Stalin, the desire to destroy Ukraine as an identity and an idea escalated into the physical destructions of Ukrainians.

The Soviet Famine, in which 5–10.8 million people perished, is one of the most devastating human tragedies of the 20th century. Particularly controversial is the disproportionately high mortality of Ukrainians. Approximately 2.1–3.15 million ethnic Ukrainians died. Between 1926 and 1939, the share of ethnic Ukrainians in the total Soviet population declined from 21.3% to 16.5%. In areas that the Bolshevik regime marked as important for grain production, ethnic Russians replaced ethnic Ukrainians as the largest ethnic group. By 1939, ethnic Russians constituted 48.1% and ethnic Ukrainians being 37.1% of the population in these regions. This paper provides the first systematic evidence that disproportionately high Ukrainian famine deaths were not an unintended consequence, but an outcome of anti-Ukrainian bias in Soviet policy. The Bolsheviks systematically over-procured food from ethnic Ukrainians, leading to higher Ukrainian mortality during the famine province by province, district by district, within and outside of Ukraine. Anti-Ukrainian bias in the grain distribution policy and migration restrictions both contributed to high Ukrainian famine mortality.

--Jo1971 (talk) 22:06, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

Sure, adding a short summary of these interpretations sounds reasonable. Gawaon (talk) 03:14, 29 January 2025 (UTC)

yeah, with longer write ups in Holodomor genocide question—blindlynx 14:13, 29 January 2025 (UTC)

References

"While scholars are in consensus that the main cause of the famine was largely man-made, not all historians believe that the term man-made is applicable to the Holodomor"

Genuinely, what in the world is this supposed to mean? Finnigami (talk) 16:50, 2 February 2025 (UTC)

No idea, the second part is a fairly recent addition, while the first one has been in the article for a long time. I have removed the newer addition and qualified the first statement as "most scholars". The additional qualifier "largely" before "man-made" was already there. Together that should be sufficient to do justice to the few opposing voices. Gawaon (talk) 03:40, 3 February 2025 (UTC)

Discrimination and persecution of Ukrainians

This subsection is clearly anchoring heavily on Mark Tauger's comments on the Markevich, Naumenko, and Qian paper titled "The Causes of Ukrainian Famine Mortality, 1932-1933" and presents information as if Tauger's criticisms are unaddressed in the paper. The Tauger critiques seem to apply to a 2021 working paper version. The paper is now published at the Review of Economic Studies (a top 5 economics journal) and includes robustness checks for the claims Tauger makes as alternative explanation for Markevich et al. findings. It seems this section should either end with the initial Naumenko response to Tauger's comments or include the details from the paper's results & robustness checks that directly test Tauger's claims. Instead, the section continues as if Tauger has refuted the paper's claims. 2600:4040:2537:A000:64FE:1747:1F53:D0F9 (talk) 04:54, 3 February 2025 (UTC)

Tauger's position is largely overrepresented in these articles unfortunately—blindlynx 14:06, 3 February 2025 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 February 2025

69.178.99.160 (talk) 08:52, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. — 🪫Volatile ^{📲T | ⌨️C} 08:57, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 February 2025

I believe that the image caption in the Genocide Question section requires further clarification. To not even address the fact that the image is often thoroughly cited as a fake is incredibly biased. Although this subject is most likely sensitive to those who have locked the article to proudly proclaim the Chicago American front page without context in the caption appears to be a form of bias by omission. Please change the caption Chicago American front page to Chicago American frontpage to Chicago American frontpage (credibility challenged by far left historian Douglas Tottle) 69.178.99.160 (talk) 08:55, 20 February 2025 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — 🪫Volatile ^{📲T | ⌨️C} 09:00, 20 February 2025 (UTC)